May 25 race debate transcript

Cr Meg Downie: I'd just like to change it to multicultural diversity strategy. I think this is a no brainer and I just urge everyone to support it.

Cr Ellis speaks on cultural diversity policy: I will speak against it...believe it or not.

Two page summary in seven key languages, Greek, Italian, Chinese, Macedonian, Korean, Persian and Fasi was made available. Sessions were offered in English and the seven key languages, but there was no public response. There was one response from a member of council's access and equity committee. It was nice that one of the committee at least wanted to make a response.

At a certain point you wonder are perhaps we pushing something a little too hard.

Now I am very pleased to see some of the initiatives that are outlined here, for example $5000 for youth engagement, an annual cultural forum $4000, the inter-faith initiative $4000 bringing harmony between the different faiths and the cultures they bring with them, and the annual household panel of culturally and linguistically diverse representation, a further $2000 allocation. Not a large amount, but an indication that we do take the support for the various cultures in Manningham and their diversity very seriously.

But of course this also foreshadows the feasibility of a multicultural centre, a feasability study of $30,000, in thereafter the expenditure on the centre itself. Now I going to say, given that there is the support we've had so far, might it be time to just stop and consider, are we doing multiculturalism the best way we can?

Are we bringing together the different groups in Manningham in a productive way, or a way that they're in fact saying, that they don't especially care to be part of. I'm astonished, that not one of these, astonished and surprised, but I note that none of these initiatives of council officers were really taken up. Now, I make the point, and we'll have an opportunity to speak to this later, if a multicultural centre is truely to include the whole diversity of Manningham, the Middle-Eastern, the Asia, the African, the Indigenous, all of these things, and the native born Australians, of predominantly Irish-Anglo-Euro origins. If it really is including all of those people, I can't really see in what sense it is different to any other community facility.
It is there for anyone who wants to come in and be a part of it, and that's the sort of Manningham that I want to be a part of. We're there for anyone who wants to come in and be part of it. I think there's an element of being seen to spend money on programs, to show that we're good at heart. I don't think we should have to demonstrate that through money that we spend, I think we should just have to be it.

I think that we should just have to say that no matter where you come from, and I was there with the mayor yesterday at the citizenship ceremony, now I love those ceremonies, you get people from all over, and remember the Olga sisters were there in the third row, beaming - so happy to be part of this, and you think this is a great country, and isn't it terrific that people come here, and so much want to be part of it. Let's welcome them. Let's have no doubt that we are doing that. Let's celebrate the diversity of cultures, but I sometimes think we over do it, and I wonder if we are really getting to what those people of diverse cultures want.

When you get a result like this, seven sessions, seven individual languages, we are here for you, we want to listen to you, we'd like your feedback, and we get a deafening silence, perhaps we're pushing the barrow a little bit too hard.


Cr Mayne: I'd like to speak in favour of the officers recommendation and the cultural diversity strategy and simply say to councillor Ellis that if we threw out entire strategies based on the lack of public responses we wouldn't have to many strategies; we wouldn't have a budget...

Cr Gough: we wouldn't have a budget...

Cr Mayne: I agree that in most things we do, possibly with the exception of Mullum Mullum ward meeting attendances, in most things we do, we don't get a satisfactory response from the community, but this is the first time I have ever heard anyone say that because of that, we should throw out the entire strategy. I'd simply say that we are one of the most diverse communities in Melbourne.

Mayor Pick: Order. wait a minute I've called order. I've got to be fair on everyone, councillor Ellis what is your point of order?

Cr Ellis: I've not said we should throw out the entire strategy, but I felt it was appropriate, especially given that I claim to be misrepresented and I wish to correct that, that I've finished in throwing out the entire strategy.

Mayor Pick: I can't be ultra strict to the point that different metaphors for the same thing doesn't exist. If you vote something down, you throw it hard, it's the English language - it's a metaphor.

Cr Ellis: I haven't thrown it down, I've spoken...

Mayor Pick: yes you've spoken against it, and you've suggested you would like to remove it, which throws it down. Councillor Mayne.

Cr Mayne: I hear what councillor Ellis is saying, but he has spoken against the recommendation, and the recommendation is that council adopt the draft cultural diversity strategy 2010-2013. I'd simply encourage him to reconsider his position. I do not think the lack of engagement from the community is reasonable grounds for voting against adopting a strategy.

We have hundreds of strategies and that would be unprecedented for someone to take that position. We have a very multicultural community, and this is a guide to officers to how me manage this diversity, to all of the diverse members of the community out there, and we ought to be celebrating our multicultural community, and I think it would send a terrible message, if we didn't have a strategy because we had a lack of engagement. I simply urge you to reconsider your position and get behind voting in favour of a very well considered and well thought out draft cultural diversity strategy.

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Cr Reid: Does Miss Haddock think that ...

Mayor Pick: in her role as community service director?

Cr Reid: yes, in her role as director of community services and so on, that the views expressed by councillor Ellis might be shared by Pauline Hanson, and what's the definition of.....

Mayor Pick: That is out of order! Concillor Reid, sit down. Withdraw the comment. It's completely out-of-order.

Cr Reid: I do apologise and withdraw the question.

Mayor Pick: okay that's enough!

Cr Reid: I do want to know what a redneck is though.

Mayor Pick: you apologise for that comment too and withdraw it. It's not appropriate.

Cr Reid: it wasn't a comment, its a question to her.

Mayor Pick: it's inappropriate and I am ruling it out of order.

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Mayor Pick (after vacating the chair): Now I do want to clarify very strongly, and I felt rather upset and annoyed at the comments from councillor Ellis, and I do want to make it a comment right from the front that the community has responded.

Cr Ellis: Hang on! Hang on.

Mayor Pick: I'm explaining that the community has responded.

Cr Ellis: point of order. Again I claim to be misrepresented. I did indicate some reservations about the multicultural centre, he is presuming the way I will vote on this, and I think your comments, councillor Reid's comments are entirely out-of-order.

Mayor Pick: the point of order, he has guessed what I'm saying. I calling an order and it's point of order.

Cr Mayne: you're not in the chair. You're not in the chair.

Mayor Pick: I'm calling an order, point of order.

Cr Mayne: you're not the chair.

Mayor Pick:: I can call point of order on the order. Know your meeting procedures.

Cr McMillan: my ruling is that I think councillor Ellis has a valid point....

Mayor Pick: Thank you. I withdraw the comments and apologise.

Cr Mayne: Finish the ruling. Finish the ruling.

Cr McMillan: and if you could please refrain from personal attacks on...

Mayor Pick: sure. Okay, in terms of comments tonight, I want to make sure it is understood that there has been a strong response from our community, particularly our cultural community, there has been substantial amounts of representations from the Chinese community organisations, from the Indian community organisations in FIAV.

Well I am sorry it is not quite there on the list in terms of multicultural representations constantly in terms of the formal considerations. But every time I as mayor, and I'm sure yourselves as councillors go out there, I get feedback on different aspects of our policies, and how they affect their community, and the various other residents in our communities and their backgrounds.

Specifically, for example, when I refer to 'their' when I talk about multicultural feedback is on the notion of the multicultural centre, we've had very very strong representations, from FIAV, the Federation of Indian Association of Victoria, we've been getting very strong representations from the Chinese community, and very strong representations as well also from the Iranian community. In fact I just got an email today about that from the Iranian community and our multicultural work and the need for us to keep working hard to achieve a multicultural centre.

So I would say that it is very very important that we don't live in backward place, and we do everything we can to achieve a multicultural community, and don't take a step back from it, and do everything we need to do to achieve racial justice, to achieve cultural harmony, and actually never ever ever ever be colour blind racists. I will resume the chair.

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Cr Ellis: Would you agree that we're to debate council policy and initiatives, open and honestly and candidly, and indeed that is our duty. In that case where there are inevitable disagreements, do you think that it is appropriate to use those disagreements and variations of opinion for a basis for callamny and accusatiuons of racism either directly or by innuendo. And indeed, would you agree that such tactics actually work against the spirit of open and candid and honest debate.

Mayor Pick: is the question directed at me? Okay. Would you like to refer to a comment in specific or?

Cr Ellis: Yes. You finished what you had to say, and I think you probably misspoke a little, that we would not be colour-blind racists. Given that I was indicating some concerns about thte amount of our expenditure on a multicultural centre, even in context of welcoming the multicultural nature of Manningham, would you not consider your remarks, let alone other questions that went through from other councillors, to be entirely against the spirit of allowing people to express their opinions, freely and candidly.

Mayor Pick: I thank councillor Ellis for his questions and I am very happy to provide clarifications for his misunderstandings. unfortunately I did not misspoke, I am not Hilary Clinton, but in terms of referring to the question of substance which you asked me, do I believe it is appropriate to make those sorts of comments, well actually I do. Because I wasn't making a comment at you, but if that is how interpret it then I can't handle how you feel about things. But personally, when I speak about the consequences of policies we adapt, if we are kicked in the head on the multicultural policy, if we said we didn't want it, sorry for that language, I know you don't like that expression its a common term in the circles I move in sorry, if we didn't adopt a multicultural strategy, what I was saying is, it would brand our council as colour-blind racists, that's my view, and I will clarify what I mean by that. It's a proper term in sociology, and it's something that I've actually been trained in - criminology and sociology, that when you create policies, and you don't actually pay attention to the impact on our cultural community. It affects harmony; it does things and it treats them the same. When actually, equality is about treating people differently sometimes. Equality isn't about treating people exactly the same. Because when you treat people the same when they come from different positions, it entrenches in equality. So my response to you is I believe my comments are entirely appropriate, and I can't deal with the guilty conscience of anyone, if that's what caused it.

Cr Ellis: Another question. Do you believe I have got a guilty conscience, and on what basis.

Mayor Pick: I don't believe you have a guilty conscience, I don't presuppose to imagine what you mean, I just find your question to be suspicious.

Cr Reid: Yeah so do I.

Cr Ellis: Oh, goodness me. The word racism was used. There was nothing racist..

Mayor Pick: Racist! The comments weren't to you councillor Ellis.

Cr Ellis: ...the name of a political figure, who might be considered to be of extreme views was raised...

Mayor Pick: you asked me about my comments, if you wish to ask comments to councillor Reid, go ahead.

Cr Ellis: no I'm asking for response about any such comments. As chair. As chair would you consider those comments appropriate?

Mayor Pick: I didn't hear a reference to racism. I heard a reference to Pauline Hanson.

Cr Ellis: mmmm?

Mayor Pick: if you think she's racist, that's your implication, but she does have views and culture that are very extreme. So if councillor Reid was referring to the fact he considers your views extreme, that's his right. If he was referring to the fact that he thinks you're racist, that's wrong.

Cr Reid: I agree with that.

Mayor Pick: any further questions councillor Ellis?

Cr Ellis: I'm not getting answers, so there's no point in questions.

Mayor Pick: I'm sorry you feel that way.

Cr Ellis: well I do. I think you have behaved appallingly.

Mayor Pick: I notice you didn't call a point of order at the time.

Cr Ellis: hmm?

Mayor Pick: I'll note you didn't call a point of order at the time.

Cr Ellis: well I am trying to minimise points of order, otherwise if I call points of order on you...

Mayor Pick: well councillor Ellis I will say candidly again...

Cr Ellis: no don't be too candid it gets you into trouble.

Mayor Pick: I'll be candid, I think you are imagining things.

Cr Ellis: well I didn't imagine the reference to Pauline Hanson and I didn't imagine your comment about being a colour-blind racist.

Mayor Pick: it wasn't about you, but that's your interpretation.

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Cr Reid: again directed at councillor Ellis genuinely in the spirit of extending an olive branch, wishing to understand his concerns. I note that he seems to be particularly sensitive on matters of race, and suggestions that racism exists in our community, and even perhaps, heaven forbid, himself. Why is that?

Cr Ellis: now hang on, it was one answer to the question.

Mayor Pick: councillor Reid you are treading very carefully here, so just ask your question.

Cr Reid: As I have said, as I have said, I am asking this question in the genuine desire to understand why my perception is that he appears, you appear, councillor Ellis, to be particularly sensitive about the race issue.

Mayor Pick: councillor Reid I will stop you there. You've asked your question. I don't want you to elaborate further, but I will ask councillor Ellis if he wishes to answer the question further.

Cr Reid: Is he and why?

Mayor Pick: You haven't gone to any spot beyond there that's not appropriate, but you're on the boundary, so just sit.

Cr Mayne: the Sunday Herald Sun might be part of it.

Mayor Pick: council there are not several discussions around it.

Cr Reid: I think it is important in case you choose to respond, how you might choose to respond, that you'll think very carefully about...

Mayor Pick: Councillor Reid. Councillor Reid! I've made my orders. Sit! You've asked your question. Councillor Ellis, respond. If you wish to or don't respond. Or do respond.

Cr Ellis: Its a particularly nasty question, loaded with the sort of innuendo I was saying I hoped we'd get beyond, I think anyone here will see it for what it is. Councillor Reid, I genuinely want to be part of a community where everyone is respected. Irrespective of what their socio-economic status is, their gender, their race or whatever. I am aware of the proclivity in human beings to set up barriers. You know, whether it is in Northern Ireland, or whether its in Brixton, or whether its in LA during the riots and so on, I really think we have to work at being a genuinely cohesive community. I think sometimes by emphasising the differences, and certainly by grandstanding, as if to say 'you can trust me, I'm not worried about differences', by empasising that, we don't allow, we don't allow a community to be genuinely cohesive.

Now I was remarking with some surprise that there was such little response to sessions, specifically inviting people to come along to comment on the multicultural policy, and said that maybe we are pushing that barrow a little too hard. I take the point that councillor Mayne made - we can't argue from a negative, and councillor Downey said that it may mean that everybody was content with the way the policy was going - I accept that, but again I say its my duty, I think, as a councillor to raise concerns if I think we're unnecessarily putting effort into something that we don't need to do. I see councillor Reid nodding, and I trust that means my explanation is taken at face value.

Cr Reid: Thank you.

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Mayor Pick: I will ask a question directed at Councillor Ellis. I would like to ask in the spirit of candid conversations and candid questions and frank statements, do you believe its fair for councillors to be able to describe policies in term of the implications of what they adopt, straightly and bluntly?

Do you think its fair for councillors to play the reverse racism card which is done constantly against culturally progressive people, whenever they name the implications of a policy and then get told they are playing the race card. I find it very very offensive, and wonder whether you would withdraw your implications that you dreamt are inside your mind.

Cr Lavella: This sounds like a witch hunt to me.

Mayor Pick: alright, it's a witch hunt. Constant witch hunt. Whose witch hunt is it?

Cr Reid: you choose not to respond?

Cr Ellis: it's hardly a question.

Mayor Pick: I shall close the council meeting.

Cr Ellis: you don't want an answer?

Mayor Pick: do you wish for an answer? The councillors are leaving we're not going to have a quorum unless councillor Mayne chooses to stay. Okay, I shall allow the end of the question.

Cr Ellis: no I've got better things to do with my time.

Mayor Pick: okay, you choose not to respond. Meeting closed. Thank you.